May These Words Matter: Reflecting on the wisdom of Dr Gabor Mate

Malika and Gitika walked into Dr. Gabor Maté’s live lecture expecting insight but we got so much more than that! There’s something disarming about the way Dr Maté’ connects the personal to the political, the clinical to the everyday, and the mind to the body without splitting them into separate boxes. If you’ve ever felt your emotions living in your skin, your stomach, your jaw, or your fatigue, this conversation is for you.

We talk through the lines we can’t stop thinking about, starting with his blunt correction: the mind and body are not “connected” because they are one. From there, we explore what it means when the immune system and the emotional system are both trying to protect us, and how anger, suppression, and chronic stress can show up as inflammation, autoimmune issues, and other stress related illness. We also reflect on The Myth Of Normal and the cultural obsession with praising people who are endlessly calm, self sacrificing, and “no trouble” and why that story can quietly train us to abandon ourselves.

We zoom out to the systems level too. Healthcare is political, and medicine can follow ideology instead of science, affecting outcomes across race, gender, and community. We connect this to South Asian health and cardiovascular risk, the problems with size based assumptions, and why better care starts with better questions about stress, trauma, and support. And we end with the concept that hit us hardest: in a fight between attachment and authenticity, attachment often wins, until we learn to notice the pattern and choose differently.

If this resonates, subscribe, share the show with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find this corner of the circle. 

Thanks for listening! we would love to hear from you, write to us, 

Your hosts, 

Malika & Gitika 

Malika is the Founder of Ik Aas Counseling, know more at https://malikabains.com/ 

Gitika is the Founder of Pranh Healing & Wellness, know more at https://www.pranhwellness.com/

Transcript

Welcome To DeCy Couch

Malika 0:57

Hi Malika. Hi Kitika. Yes.

Gitika 1:01

Welcome to our next episode of DeSi Couch, the podcast where we talk about all things DeC, our secrets, our joys, our loves, and it's an opportunity to just get comfortable.

Malika 1:14

Get comfortable on the couch. Are you on the couch? Because I want a chair. Yes. And while we're on the couch, just sitting and having a comfortable conversation through everything, therapy, mental health, and Desi community.

Gitika 1:33

Exactly.

Seeing Gabor Maté Live

Gitika 1:36

So today Malika and I actually wanted to talk about this amazing lecture we attended by Dr. Gabor Mate.

Malika 1:45

Is that what he said? How do you say his name? I think it's that. I think it's Gabor Mateh. I think you say it. That's okay.

Gitika 1:55

Dr. Gabor Mateh. So his talk. What do you remember?

Malika 2:01

Where do we start? Where do we even start? Because I know if I get started, my brain is gonna be like ding, bing, ding, like all the thoughts are gonna come and crashing down at the same time. But I just want to start with saying what an honor, Gitika, that we got to see him live in person. I think that was it was like a pop star, a psychology pop star, and we're all just so crazy to see him. I remember you saw him like so up close on the street, and we were like, You saw him so close.

Gitika 2:43

No, and absolutely, because look, I grew up in Bombay, and I used to now and then, once in a while, see film stars. Yeah, I remember this once seeing Salman Khan and being like, Oh my god, Salman Khan. And now I'm a grown-up and I'm a psychologist. And who do I see but Gabor Mateh, just six feet away, and walking to the speech the place where we were going to hear him? And I was walking and I see a stage door, and I suddenly see the stage door is open, and this black car stops, and Gabor Mate steps out, and I'm like, Oh my god, Arkasalman can't.

Malika 3:28

Did someone see?

Gitika 3:33

So it was so exciting. It was truly though, such a blessing, such an honor to get to hear him.

Malika 3:42

I feel like he's just so wise, and I'm just in awe of how open his mind is, how he's able to just interconnect everything in the world with everything. And I think I think that's an ADHD superpower, which he is using it very creatively to express how he feels, but it's such a gift, it's such a gift to be able to hear him talk and really find the intersectionality between everything and everything.

Gitika 4:14

Absolutely,

Healthcare Is Political

Gitika 4:15

absolutely, because a lot of my respect for Dr. Mate really increased even more after he stood so openly in solidarity with Palestine, like naming genocide, naming everything that's happening and being open, vocal, unapologetic. Yeah, it's um it's very, very heartening to see your teachers embody the values that you want to be able to carry forward as well, you know, that courage it takes and really stand in solidarity and the courage it takes to say, hey, healthcare is political.

Malika 5:03

I know, yeah. I just he's such a courageous person because that I remember that too when everything was happening with the with the war in Gaza, and then I remember watching that clip. I think he did a he did a lot of talks about it, but there was one clip that he did with his daughter where the daughter asked him questions. I think that was one of his first ones, and the way he was able to connect why he stand for what he stand, it just it just made sense to my brain, and I felt so validated. Like, okay, so I'm not going crazy with how much I feel about what's going on because it was an internal turmoil, and sometimes you hear a lot of the logical and rational about oh, this is the strategy, this is what's going on. And then sometimes the impacts are viewed as you're too emotional, you're being in your emotions, you're not seeing the bigger picture, but then it continued to affect me. And when I saw him talk so openly about it, non-apologetically, that was powerful for me to solidify my own stance. Like, okay, it is fine, it matters, it matters how I think, and this is a great way to articulate it learning from him.

Gitika 6:24

Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. And I think like even how much there has been like pressure to call it a war, when it's like it's a genocide, it's a genocide, and that he said that, and also like I have a lot of love and respect for Dr. Sama Jabbar, who's the psychiatrist from the West Bank. And Dr. Jabbar also did this webinar recently, and I was in that such a gift, and I found out during that webinar that Dr. Jabbar has written a book, and then I found out that the foreword was written by Dr. Gabor Mateh. And again, it was like, oh my god, my two teachers know each other and respect each other and support each other, which is also such a it's it's such an ongoing gift to witness that healthcare can be a solidarity practice.

Malika 7:20

I know it's like the whole thing, he just hit it on on the point that this is how it's connected. He comes backing himself up with researches, he's like he's got it down. It's a position, so it makes sense that his brain kind of wants to make sure that it's all evidence-based, and he he makes a solid ground for himself when he talks about the even the theoretical conceptualization, it's not just theory, he has experienced it, it witnessed it, and there's research that backs him up. Totally.

Gitika 7:58

It

Mind And Body Are One

Gitika 7:58

feels relevant to The Couch. Like, why are we talking about Dr. Mate on this episode? Yeah, at the heart of it, because our people have often expressed through their bodies, right? I have a headache, I'm not well. So we have tried to express our emotion through our bodies. We may not have had language for the multiple emotions, but we have used metaphors. Like I remember that that might feel like a tree that has lost all its leaves. So I was struck by how Dr. Mate said, Hey, the mind and body are not connected, the mind and body are one, and I'm like, yes, say it out loud for the people who don't understand what is just so amazing.

Malika 8:51

Like he he dropped so many one sentence kind of wisdom, it was short to the point. My plan is to kind of put it all together and make a post on Instagram about Gabor's wisdom, but that was one of them, which was so well done. He was people keep saying mind and body connection. What do you mean, mind and body are connected? It it is one. Mind and body is one.

Gitika 9:20

Yes. I loved the part where he also said that the immune system and the emotion system are doing the work of keeping inside the nourishment and keeping out the things that are dangerous or poisonous to the body. And I'm like thinking about all the times that our emotions have signaled to us something is wrong. We continue to tolerate what is wrong and eventually we fall sick. Yes, yes, and and then of course, then we go down that whole rabbit hole of fixing the symptom, fixing the symptom. I know, but the symptoms cause is not just oh, my liver is not functioning as well. The liver is not functioning as well because it's been really the emotions have been so heightened and not addressed.

Malika 10:09

Yes. So that was that was yeah, it's about I think she correlated that anger as well. That immune system and anger are the ways that you're protecting yourself. And when anger continues to be suppressed, it it still shows up in the body, and that's where your immune system gets so proactive because it pinks the oh, there is something that it needs to defend you from. So the immune system gets activated in the body, and that leads to inflammation and all the autoimmune disorders that everyone deals with, more women than not more women, and it was his book, that myth of normal, the myth of normal. I probably it's right at the very top of my shelf. The myth of normal by Kapoor Mate MD with Daniel Mate, and this is the one that I purchased back in I think 2022. 2022 may I read it, and I was going through a lot of things with my body as well. And this is the book that gave me so many answers. Because it really opened my mind, and I was shocked reading the kind of research that he has put through in regards to anger suppression, personality traits that correlate with your autoimmune. What happens when we no longer express? It's like if if we're not expressing ourselves, it all stays inside, and then the body starts attacking your own cells because something needs to happen. The emotions are still gonna be channeled. If you're not speaking about it, talking about it, it goes inwards. He talked about how even a lot of people who get diagnosed with cancer, how does that happen and the personality traits they have? You know, a lot of the time, I think he mentioned like obituaries, when people have obituary written for them. He said that he has he researched, I don't know. But the research was they went over all the obituaries that were coming up on the newspapers, and it was always about oh, such a person who helped others, someone who put their heart into helping others, they were always there for me. Such a gem, it was a model of a calmness, you know. And he's like, These are the personality traits that correlate with autoimmune and all of the serious illnesses because why is someone so calm and self-sacrificial and why is that being glorified?

Gitika 13:03

Yeah, yeah. I really loved him naming that this is not to blame the victim, it's not to blame someone for their illness, it's to name that we are sometimes living in societies that you know really value calmness. This person just would fade into the background, not bother anybody. So in that process, we end up telling people you are supposed to suppress yourself, you're supposed to be calm no matter what is going on, you're supposed to help others. So you have forced people to sacrifice then you know their protective emotions like anger, rage, irritation, whatever and disagreement, yeah, disagreement. So, yeah, so that's why like I love that the subheading of myth of normal was what is it, healing, trauma, and toxic culture?

Adaptation Becomes Personality

Malika 14:03

Yes, trauma, illness, and healing in a toxic culture.

Gitika 14:07

Yeah, so he does name like hey, this is not about individuals being blamed for their illness, it's talking about the toxic culture that valorizes people for being calm, self-sacrificing, and that is laying the foundation for illness.

Malika 14:24

So and he kept on saying that you know how he he said that everything arises in relation to everything, yes, very Buddhist, and he also quoted the Buddha, and it makes sense, and that's why I I love the way he views the world because it's not just about looking at a person, just one person, and focusing on that one person, it's about how this person is relating to everything that's going on around them, and and how is all of that affecting this person? Where is that intersection? And that's how he explained connecting politics, economy, housing market to mental health, and how we respond to these stressors, and then what happens in our body?

Gitika 15:15

Yeah, yeah. I was quickly just googling something, but I will come to that in a moment. But I had really appreciated that the ways he also spoke about adaptation, yeah, that from such a young age we are receiving messages about adapting. So, like he talked about how we have gut instincts, right? But how many times do we ignore our gut instinct and say, no, no, no, no, it's not what I think in my, you know, what I know in my gut. I don't think so. Let me ignore it. He says, Children, like infants, babies, don't ignore gut instincts, right? A baby will cry when it's hungry, it'll cry when it's wet, whatever. And over time, it starts learning that oh, I should not bother anyone, I should not do this. They learn that over time. An infant when that does not understand, it's too young to understand. But then it starts understanding from a very young age, the infant is starts, a child starts adapting to how to express its uh adapting to its environment and then learning to like navigate it. So I loved how Dr. Mate himself spoke about his own experiences of learning to adapt in a particular way, and then that would show up throughout his life. Uh-huh. That was that was interesting. Like, how many of the things that we call personality traits that you know the Pedaishiya City? Like some of the virtues like this, and I'm like, There are very few things that are from birth, a lot of adaptation, exactly.

Malika 17:04

And he used, I agree with you. I think it's so powerful when he's able to reflect back on his experiences, and then he shares that with us because it tells us this is a person who's not just talk, talk, talk. You know, he has done his internal work and he continues to do that. It's not some bookish knowledge that he has read and now he wants to share with others. He has applied all of that to himself, and he has connected dots of how his childhood experiences still affects him and how he keeps an eye on it and how he changes it. It was he said one line, and it was childhood adaptations gets imprinted on the nerves when you don't even know what is an adaptation.

Gitika 17:53

Yes.

Malika 17:55

It's wow. Say that again.

Gitika 17:58

Say that again.

Malika 17:59

Yeah, it is childhood adaptations gets imprinted on the nerves when you don't even know what's an adaptation. So it's like when you grow up, you know, someone who may not understand the impact of childhood trauma, how would they know that this, like you said, quote unquote personality trait is an adaptation? Yeah, they wouldn't even know that this is something that I have the option, or there is a path for me to actually look at this personality trait and do something different if this personality trait is no longer working for me, it's not working in my relationships or for me personally, it's bringing me down. But other than pata hini yanki, that personality trait is an adaptation. So, how would we even begin trying to work on those things?

Gitika 19:00

Totally, totally, and you know, I think that's where relationships are so important, right? To be in genuine relationships where you can feel cared for and also honor feedback, you receive feedback and you get to honor that feedback and learn from it, right?

Chronic Stress Needs Support

Gitika 19:27

Because that was one of the things that he also talked about that stress, everybody experiences stress. Chronic stress is where the health impact is, and even among people experiencing chronic stress, it is people who have support who are going to still thrive or at least not see as much of the negative impact of stress as someone else is trying to do this alone. So, and again, share research about this, which was great.

Malika 20:01

He he researched no no nay he shared research about breast cancer women that their chances of healing goes four times higher when they're emotionally supported. Imagine imagine that that is so important, that is so important, but then it's so overlooked, yeah. It's so much overlooked, yeah. And his main grief is kiesari bate are not happening in a doctor's office.

Gitika 20:35

Oh gosh, that was the other really like powerful like oh Dr. Gabor Mateh, like you can say this, you have so much courage. Uh thank you for saying this. He said the medical system does not always listen to the science, it listens to ideology. And I was like, oh no, he said it, he said it, which is why, right? Like, which is why when he was saying, when he was talking about okay, there are higher rates of maternal mortality among black women, that there are higher rates of this and that disease among women of color. Or when you're comparing men and women, women have more health impacts post-marriage, and men have more health, positive health impacts post-marriage. And he was like, if that's not gender, then what he so he was talking about all of this, and then he thought, if how can you say health is not political? It is constantly impacted by politics. So when a medical system is not listening to what is important, but is instead following like some held culturally held notions or politically viable notions, you know, medical systems then are not being driven by science, they're being driven by ideology. I think Dr. Mate is saying that, and he also said, like, look, you know, and I I can't stand, I can't keep quiet. So I say these things, and then and I think he was also talking about how they called him the I don't know, the prophet of pain or something.

Malika 22:19

Right? I missed that. I remember actually he was kind of saying all those things about healthcare system, and then he was he asked the audience a question about when you go to your doctor visit, how many of your doctors? No, he asked how many of you have been to a gynecologist first, and then a lot of people raised their hands, and then he was like, How many of your gynecologists have asked you about your childhood traumas, stress in your life, your uh mental health history of your family? What is Going around you, and only kind of one person was like mine, and he's like, Yes, keep yours then. And he's like, This is not to shut all the healthcare providers down, but it is a reality where the providers are not being trained by every facility to focus on their patients' mental health and familial and jargot traumas.

Gitika 23:21

Bil call.

When Medicine Follows Ideology

Gitika 23:23

No, that's that's that's true because uh, you know, there is this study, it there's this uh research program called the Masala study. So the Masala study is actually studying cardiovascular health of the South Asian community, and I have such deep respect for the folks behind the Masala study because they have talked about how a lot of cardiovascular risk factors in the South Asian community can look different than what medical schools are typically training people in, and South Asians are six times more likely to die of early heart attacks than others, and that like that that really wrecked me because uh we show ill health in a different way, and we can seem like and you know, like this constant emphasis on size as an indicator of health, which is so risky, which is risky, so that you know that anti-obesity rhetoric has ended up body shaming people when actually there is possibility of health at every size. The reality is that you can be healthy at any size, and the South Asian community in particular, you can be super skitty and still have heart attacks, a lot of health problems, yeah. So I feel like in our BC community in particular, there ends up being such so much nonsense, fat shaming kind of nonsense in our communities, and I feel like that fat shaming can make its way into a doctor's office and actually harm you because our community actually will show cardiovascular risk factors in different ways. So, this was just to connect back to what Dr. Mate was saying about you know, when medical systems are driven by ideology, there is the gist of people actually not getting the health care they need.

Malika 25:37

And what you're saying, I I think there's also the other the contrasting ideology, cultural ideology about if you are not healthy looking, like if you're not of a bigger size, then oh, then are you not happy? There's another that correlation of like if let's say if you're a skinny person, then you're often you will hear a lot of comments in the society about how you need to eat more, you need to eat more. Aren't you happy? Oh my gosh, like you don't look like you're from a well-off family because you're skinny.

Gitika 26:13

Oh, that's right, that's right. Like those extremes too. Yeah, especially in Punjabis, I think we fall in both those extremes quite easily. Like, you know, she eats well, so she looks healthy, and then there is the other like the fat-shaming parts too. So I don't know, like you know, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Exactly.

Malika 26:34

Well,

Attachment Beats Authenticity

Malika 26:35

okay, going back, the favorite part of the my favorite part of Dr. Mate's talk was when he talked about attachment versus authenticity. Please so much. I love attachment stuff. So he said in a fight between attachment and authenticity, attachment always wins.

Gitika 26:57

Wow.

Malika 27:01

You grow if you don't have a solid foundation growing up where you don't have a healthy attachment with your primary caregiver, you are going to internalize certain messages of how you're supposed to show up in a relationship. Like you said, you know how you mentioned that babies follow their gut instead. They are being very authentic. If they want to eat something, they're gonna cry and tell you, I need to eat, or I need to sleep, or I need to poop and whatnot. And as the baby grows, there are certain messages that are being given to them about how they need to show up in this relationship. So when the baby continues to focus on the other person and what the other person needs, and they're realizing if I give them what they need, I am being loved in their mind. You know, I will be taken care of, I will be loved if I behave the way they want me to behave. So, in that pursuit of approval, acceptance, and attachment to this person who's really, really important to them, they stop kind of being their own authentic version. Yeah, they start moving authenticity, and we take that kind of internalized concept in our adult relationships as well. Wow, wow, we replay the similar attachment styles with people around us as an adult in order to pursue that acceptance. We continue to put our authentic selves on the side because we have learned that authenticity does not get me acceptance. Wow, attachment versus authenticity, and attachment always wins. Wow, wow.

Gitika 28:47

Yeah, wow, yeah, this is amazing. I think revisiting this talk with you was so fun. I know,

Honoring Survival Without Shame

Gitika 28:57

I know I am aware of the time, so you know, as we prepare to close, I'm wondering if there is any part of Dr. Mate that we would like to continue in our practice. Like, I don't know, it's like you know, like people live on through their deeds and they live on through the deeds that other people then practice, also. So I wonder what are ways in which we would want to keep Dr. Gabor Mate alive in our hearts, in our practice, on our podcast. Is there anything that comes to mind that you'd be like this?

Malika 29:41

I'll always say first, I did not realize that our time is also up and I feel sad because I want to keep talking. I want to keep talking about this. And what I want to take with me is uh Dr. Mate's way of validating everyone's adaptations. Remember that one example he gave of an indigenous woman who felt ashamed of not knowing her native language. Yes, and he explored it further with her and realized that she as a child was getting beaten up for speaking her native language. And his response is what I want to remember. His response was thank God you stopped talking in your native language. Yeah, he said, Can you imagine if you continued to talk in your language, you may not be here today? Yeah so the kind of respect he can show to a survivor by honoring their trauma, because he he said trauma represents the journey of the past. So the way he honors a person's trauma is what I want to do in my sessions, yeah, that's what I want to take away.

Gitika 31:04

Yeah, to never shame people for what they did to survive for sure. And it's beautiful that you name that because I remembered how he had started his talk, and he named this bracelet that had been given to him, I believe, by the Haida Gwai people. Yes. Um and that bracelet had a prayer wrapped in it that said, May your words matter. And I think that's what I would want to always take with me. May our words matter, may how we show up in this world, and let our words express that, but let these words matter, yes, and um, yeah, and how he has shown us the ways in which you are a vessel for your ancestors, for all our relations across the globe and your descendants, you know. May you always show up in a way that keeps it real, you know, keeps it real, keeps it genuine. And yeah, gosh, thanks, Manika, for arranging the tickets for Dr. Gapur Mate's talk. Thank you, Dr. Mate, for just yeah, being out there in the world. You give us courage.

Malika 32:43

Gives us courage. Yeah. Ugh, I'm glad. I'm so glad. Thank you for going with me, Gitika. And and I'm so glad we did this discussion. And I hope, as listeners, there is some statement, some phrase, some feeling that you connected with. And I hope you continue to make space for yourself and honor your traumas. Yes.

Gitika 33:08

Awesome.

Like Subscribe And Share

Gitika 33:09

So, folks, please go ahead, like, subscribe to our podcast so that you know when new episodes drop. Please share our podcast wherever you're listening and share them in your circles. We would love for this podcast to be like a tiny corner of the world where you can feel like you're a part of the circle and a place where you know your feelings matter and you have them.

Malika 33:38

Yes. Thanks for watching. All right, see you in the next one. Bye. Awesome.